Sunday Interview - ‘Today or tomorrow India and Pak have to address Kashmir’
Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Kashmir’s chief Muslim cleric and chairman of a faction of separatist Hurriyat Conference alliance speaks to Yusuf Jameel at his Srinagar residence besieged by police ahead of the NSA-level talks between India and Pakistan.
[As our correspondent Yusuf Jameel arrived at the residence of Mirwaiz Umar at Srinagar’s posh Nigeen colony on the morning of August 20, he found a bunker vehicle (J&K police’s answer to armoured personal carrier) crisscrossing the main entrance and half a dozen gun-yielding policemen standing in a state of alertness nearby. The Mirwaiz had been placed under house arrest an hour or so before and no outsider other than the family members and personal staff of the cleric-politician was being allowed go in or come out of the bungalow. While a police official was arguing with a TV crew which wanted to go inside to interview the Mirwaiz, Jameel decided to give it a try by pretending to be a family member. It did work as the policemen who had blocked the entrance did not ask any questions or sought identity proof when he introduced himself as a member of the Mirwaiz family]
Q: Pakistan’s invitation to you and other separatist leaders to meet with Sartaj Aziz during his stay in Delhi is being seen by many in India as a ploy to scuttle the NSA-level talks. What do you have to say?
A: Hurriyat Conference has been asking for mechanism towards involving people of Jammu and Kashmir in India-Pakistan talks to address the problem of Kashmir. Secondly, there would be many people from Delhi invited to the reception for the visiting Pakistani dignitary. So there was no reason to create hype or make an issue out of it. It was not a formal dialogue between the Hurriyat and the Government of Pakistan which the Government of India could object to. Also, this process has been going on for a very long time where we go down to Delhi to meet visiting Pakistani dignitaries. Whole idea behind this is; Hurriyat Conference wants not only to lend its support to India-Pakistan dialogue but, at the end of the day, we believe that both the countries have to carve out a mechanism on how to take the people of Jammu and Kashmir along. I fail to understand why every time the invite to Hurriyat Conference to meet the Pakistanis becomes such an issue in the media.
Yesterday our executive council met and welcomed the NSA-level talks. We said that at a time when India and Pakistan are exchanging bullets and bombs at the LoC it is very imperative for the two countries to sit and talk and, first of all, go for a complete ceasefire. Trust deficit between the two sides persists. Kashmir remains the core issue. I don’t think by adopting a policy of dillydallying we are going to reach anywhere. The two countries have to address the issue and our stand is very clear that we support India-Pakistan dialogue. And there has to be a mechanism on how to make the people of Kashmir and their leadership part of it. It is just a reception meet where we would obviously give our point of view and which would be in line with overall view from Kashmir that India and Pakistan need to talk.
Q: Pakistan already knows your stand on Kashmir and related issues; hence the view in India is there was no need to invite you and, by ignoring this fact, Islamabad has crossed the ‘red line’ once again?
A: I don’t know why it is being seen as crossing of ‘red line’ or provocation especially in a government which itself has been involved in talks with the Hurriyat Conference and the Kashmiris. I’m talking about Atal Behari Vajpayee and others. He was also of the view that dialogue and engagement is the only way forward. The Hurriyat Conference has been saying that the present BJP government in New Delhi should walk that line and the policy which Mr. Vajpayee was talking about and pursuing to seek the resolution of Kashmir within the ambit of humanity.
Sadly, there seems to be no clarity on how this government is going to address the issue of Kashmir. They must understand the fact that India and Pakistan can’t do regular business without addressing Kashmir which is a live issue and needs to be addressed. I think it is high time that Government of India makes a distinction between peoples’ grievances which might be addressed through electoral processes and having governments and their political aspirations which is the bigger question at hand.
Q: You have been placed under house arrest. So have been some other separatist leaders. Do you foresee it as a move to prevent you from travelling to Delhi to meet Mr. Aziz?
A: It is not yet clear what this house arrest is all about. I have not been told officially by the government or the police authorities about this. They (police contingent) came in the morning and laid siege to this place. Is it for Friday tomorrow, is it for Monday’s meeting in Delhi or is it for something else? The whole idea behind going to Delhi is to lend support and strengthen the dialogue process because it is in our interest that India and Pakistan keep talking. India can’t undermine the fact that Hurriyat Conference represents a view. They are trying to push the people to the wall. Already we see resurgence in violence and educated youth turning to militancy. Obviously when there is no political scope to address this problem we tend to look for other avenues. Even if we are not allowed to meet Mr. Aziz we will continue to lay focus on our policy which is; today or tomorrow India and Pakistan have to address the Kashmir issue and concede the wishes and aspirations of the people of Kashmir.
Q: Notwithstanding the NSA-level talks, growing tensions between the two countries in the backdrop of recent terror attacks and cross-border skirmishes are seen by many as bad omen especially for Kashmir and its people. Do you see a worse scenario emerging?
A: Sadly yes. We were hoping that the NSA-level talks would go a step forward to build trust and mutual understanding between the two countries. But now question is being asked whether the talks are going to take place and if we are not allowed to meet Mr. Aziz what Pakistan’s position is going to be on it. Honestly, Hurriyat Conference wants dialogue should take place. What is happening at the LoC is clear indication that the trust deficit between India and Pakistan is at all time low and the November 2003 ceasefire which was holding for so many years is being violated on daily basis. We have seen killings on both sides of the divide line. Hurriyat Conference has appealed for ceasefire to both the sides but sadly that doesn’t seem to be the case. There is genuine concern over this development. The USA and the UN Secretary General have also appealed for calm.
Kashmiris are worried as it is they who bear the brunt of these active hostilities along the borders. I hope good sense will prevail and the situation does not get out of hand. We all know there is no military solution to the problem of Kashmir. Ultimately they have to address these across the table. The other day I was listening to Narendra Modi’s speech in Dubai. He also said that all issues have to be ultimately put on the table. I think he should walk that talk on Kashmir as well. You can’t have double standards on issues. Kashmir is the oldest unresolved issue which is on the agenda of the United Nations and India-Pakistan are signatories to that. There is international commitment. If you talk about principle that principle should stand on every issue. Whether you like or not, Kashmir is the major issue which needs to be addressed.
Q: Pakistani media reports say while finalising a strategy for the NSA-level talks, the neighbouring country’s top civil and military leadership has agreed to adopt an aggressive stance on certain issues such as Baluchistan and violence in Karachi. On the other hand, India is going to be tough on terrorism issue and will be doing straight talking. Do you still expect a cordial outcome?
A: I hope it would but given the environment right now, what we have seen or heard from media on both sides and at the government levels, it looks very less will be achieved. Next year Mr. Modi is scheduled to go to Islamabad for the Saarc heads of state meet. Let them talk, talk and talk. Even regional cooperation is being threatened because of continuous animosity between India and Pakistan. I believe it is in the interest of overall peace and regional stability that these talks should go ahead and make headway. Let it be a continuous process in hand where they meet at different levels on regular basis and obviously once they start meeting and talking all issues including Kashmir will be on their agenda.
Q: There was no mention of Kashmir in the joint statement issued after the two Prime Ministers met at Ulfa (Russia). Can’t India and Pakistan try to improve bilateral relations minus Kashmir till enough trust is built between the two sides to take up this issue too?
A: Kashmir is the core issue between India and Pakistan and key to prosperity and improved neighbourly relations between the two countries lay in its resolution keeping in view the wishes and aspirations of the people of the State. The two sides did try to address the other issues but all their agreements fell apart because Kashmir was sidestepped in these. I don’t think I have to stir up your readers’ memories regarding (the fate of) Tashkent, Simla and Lahore agreements.
Q: If they agree on taking people of Kashmir on board, who should represent them across the table?
A: As far as political aspirations of the people are concerned, we believe the pro-freedom camp, which strongly believes in granting right to determination to the people, has to be involved. Parties like the National Conference and Peoples’ Democratic Party which have been fighting elections and are part of electoral politics have themselves recognised the fact that they are there to provide good governance and give people bijli, sadak, pani and that if the issue of Kashmir is to be addressed on political level the Government of India should talk to the Hurriyat Conference and other pro freedom parties.
That should be the case. But at the same time we are not saying that we are the only ones or only representatives of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. We agree that in Jammu and Ladakh there is a difference of view, there is a difference of perception. That also has to be taken into consideration. Let us assume India and Pakistan say tomorrow that we are ready to talk to the Kashmiris. If that does happen you won’t find us averse to their talking to all sections of the society.
Q: Government of India doesn’t seem to be interested in holding talks with separatist leadership. Do you feel isolated?
A: Kashmir issue is not going to go away. I was watching a report on TV this morning which talked about the Government’s plan to reach out the youth of Kashmir through sports so that they don’t get radicalized. It not a bad idea to give people such facilities to be physically active but it would be totally wrong to think that people of Kashmir especially its youth will forget the trauma they have been through or the sacrifices made in the freedom struggle. Their playing cricket and tennis is not going to help. Problem is there for the last 68 years and the third generation of Kashmir is involved in it. So I don’t think the people of Kashmir will give up so easily. Secondly, Hurriyat Conference is not begging for dialogue.
India and Pakistan will have to come on the table to address the issue and even the world community is of the view that they ought to settle their problems. That is not possible without taking people of Kashmir on board. As of now, Government of India is avoiding the issue by buying time. Do they think they can get the issue on the backburner and people will forget? No way. People will not forget as they are living the problem every day. You have AFSPA, you have other black laws, people are being arrested and tortured on daily basis, 9,000 people are missing, you have 6,000 unmarked graves and violations continue. You have military build-up in whole of Jammu and Kashmir; there are thousands of troops deployed in every nook and corner of the State. So people are living the issue every day. The more they try to ignore the issue the more problems are going to surface. Already there has been radicalisation process among the youth of Jammu and Kashmir
Q: AS Dulat's claims in his book of money changing hands, favours being handed out. He's basically said that the strategy that serves India's interest best and helps maintain peace is dialogue and money? Do you see a way out there?
A: It is not for the first time that security and intelligence agencies have done something very unusual in Kashmir. I think that is their way. Right from day one when the freedom struggle started, New Delhi has been offering sops and perks to everyone who is willing to take their view and walk their line. But, at the end of the day, pro-freedom movement and pro-freedom leadership are still there. They have not changed their track. Mr. Dulat might have sold high dreams to them. According to him, he has been offering chief minister’s post to every one of them. I don’t think anybody from the freedom camp has gone to the other side as far as the leadership, the higher ups are concerned.
I don’t think there is much into it. And then he was also been one of the key functionaries involved when Hurriyat Conference talked to the BJP government. I do remember that it was Mr. Vajpayee’s view and his effort which ultimately led to the breakthrough and, for the first time, the Indian leadership met the Hurriyat Conference in an official dialogue. I think that is the only way forward whether anybody likes it or not. Offering of perks and other incentives or making people to participate in elections and accept ministries are not going to settle the problem. There is an association of people and of the leadership with this cause for generations. I don’t think that association is going to go away by offering perks and money.
Q: Would you like to comment on the Udhampur attack and the revelations by the militant -- that he was given shelter by the residents of south Kashmir.
A: To be honest, militancy is not as active as it used to in 1990s. But we also see thousands of Kashmiris coming out on the streets whenever a militant is killed. The whole area -young, old, women and children- identify themselves with the cause. Whether there are 200 or 300 militants there, the fact remains they are getting support like shelter and money from the people. They stand by them, they feel for the cause and, I think, this association speaks a lot. We also see that whenever militants are holed up, entire population of that area comes out and starts throwing stones on the security personnel to engage them so that the militants are able to give them the slip.
Q: Also, youngsters including highly educated and those from affluent families are turning to militancy, Pakistani and ISIS flags are being waved in Kashmir. Does the trend speak about radicalism taking deeper roots and changing of priorities among Kashmir’s new generation?
A: Definitely, there is alienation among the youth. There is no doubt about radicalism taking place. Reaching out the youth of Kashmir through sports is not going to change it. I think, you have to hit the nail on the head. I’m also of the view that whatever the influence political forces including Hurriyat Conference and other pro-freedom parties might have on these people, our cadres and on the youth that may not remain there.
The situation is changing so fast. There is a view that there is a generation out there which says that politics has failed, political leadership has failed, dialogue has failed, India and Pakistan have failed us and that the only way out for us is; we take our own way. Some pelt stones, some come up with ISIS’s flags, some are joining militancy. I think this question has to be answered by India. Do they want to push the next generation of Kashmiris towards violence or do they want to engage politically and peacefully with the stakeholders and find an answer to this problem.
Q: India repeatedly accuses Pakistan of being actively involved in Kashmir militancy. What would be your response?
A: This is not something new. But if you look at the latest trend-the media is also buzz with it. The militant outfits are getting local recruits now-educated youth who are not even going to Pakistan but are getting self (arms) training in south Kashmir and different areas of Pir Panjal ridge. There is availability of arms and ammunition and money is changing hands. Hurriyat Conference wants to pursue this problem politically and peacefully but given the situation I believe even the Hurriyat is being pushed to the wall and a situation is being created where local militants and home-grown militancy can become a reality.
Q: Where do these arms and ammunition come from?
A: I also told you money is changing hands and when you have enough money in hand you can get anything.
Q: What about the PDP-BJP government experiment -- is it working?
A: It doesn’t seem to be. When PDP assumed power it tried to create the impression that though its agenda would be good governance and development it wants to see dialogue taking place between Delhi and Srinagar involving all the stakeholders. What is, however, happening on ground is known to all. Every day Hurriyat leaders are placed under house arrest , not being allowed to hold rallies, not being allowed even to offer Friday prayers at times. This is the same policy which the previous government was pursuing.
Kashmir remains a police state and whatever decisions are taken are taken by the police and the security agencies. Even on the part of governance they have failed miserably. No help has come to the sufferers of September 2014 floods. It is good that the people have realised that they are on their own; they have to fend their own selves. I think the people have shown the way. People have helped each other, Kashmir Diaspora has helped. Let Kashmiri also realise that we can’t be dependent on PDP or BJP for relief and rehabilitation. I think we have to come out of subsidy and aid culture. Best thing is; we have to stand up on our own.
Q: Dulat has also claimed that New Delhi decides who should become the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir and that Farooq Abdullah was once promised the chair of India’s Vice President and later deceived by the Vajpayee-led NDA government?
A: This is vindication of what we have been saying for the last so many years that it doesn’t matter who is the Chief Minister or who is sent to the Assembly. The policy is made in Delhi and is pursued by Delhi. We have seen in the case of Afzal Guru and on AFSPA and the autonomy resolution issues, not a single mainstream party from Kashmir has been able to take a firm stand. They have only let the people down by their own standard. Actually, these parties don’t represent the people of Kashmir in New Delhi but represent New Delhi in Kashmir.
Q: There has been hue and cry over resettlement of Kashmiri Pandits. Don’t you think time has come when Kashmiri Muslims should help towards facilitating return of displaced Pandits?
A: Definitely. I think nobody is against the rehabilitation of Kashmir Pandits. If the government gives them a decent package in terms of financial help, no Kashmiri will be against it. The only concern we do have is; there should no ghetto culture part of it. We have problem only with having separate colonies for Kashmiri Pandits like you have the Israel settlements on the West Bank and other areas. It will create more division. We as part of a Hurriyat Conference initiative started meeting the members of Kashmir Pandit community who are living here without any fear and the people who are willing to be a part of the composite culture of the Valley.
Even you have a huge chunk of people within the community which says we don’t need to come back and live in caged areas, behind the barbed wires and under police protection. Let them come, I’m sure we can work out a mechanism wherein the government can announce packages for them and they can again be part of the composite culture which Kashmir was famous for. Let that culture be saved. Let us not radicalise and isolate the whole society by dividing ourselves into different zones and areas.
Q: You are also against setting up Sainik colonies for former soldiers in Kashmir?
A: One of the concerns that we have is that, for a long time, the RSS and its allies have been trying to work on an agenda aimed at diluting the Muslim character of Jammu and Kashmir. I’m not saying the BJP government is already doing that and working with the PDP to implement the RSS agenda but there are genuine fears among the people when they talk about settling erstwhile West Pakistan refugees and issuing state subject certificates in schools and other places. We know how Israel has worked in the past against the Palestinians.
There is fear among the people that India may be following the same lines and want to change the ratio of population. Who are these soldiers they are going to be given plots of land? Are they Kashmiris or outsiders? There is no clarity on this. BJP is saying one thing and the PDP saying something different. In principle we are opposed to any such move which is aimed at changing the demographic character of the State.
Q: What do you suggest when it comes to delivering justice for human rights abuses and to the families of missing people?
A: That is a huge question and I must say we are dismayed over the lack of concern over this by International community. Amnesty International and Human Rights Asia Watch do issue statements on regular basis on the situation in Kashmir but we are saddened to see that the Americans no longer talk about violations. Even United Nations and other agencies which are supposed to talk on these issues are maintaining silence. Within India the Left parties and political forces having a more human face are ignoring questions on these issues. For last 25 years, 9,000 people have gone missing. There are organizations there like APDP which are working on this. They say they have a right to know where their kith and kin are. I think there has to be some sense of accountability and justice. Sadly, when it comes to Kashmir everything is politicized and even justice and judicial system become part of overall jingoism on Kashmir and Kashmir related issues.
Q: What happened to the unity move in separatist camp? Pakistan was trying hard to see all factions of Hurriyat Conference and other groups in concert?
A: First of all, if unity is going to happen it should happen not because Pakistan wants it. We do feel there should be a situation wherein we can come together and talk in one voice on issues of interest. But I don’t think it is necessary that we all have to come and be part of one forum. Let there be different parties. There are no major differences as far as our goal or objective is concerned but yes in terms of modalities some people want to pursue a gradual- step by step- approach to problems, others call for only traditional and principled solution of the issue. Already, we have a committee of Geelani Sahib, Yasin Malik and myself which meets on regular basis. I think let time decide. No resistance movement in the world has seen complete unity of thought. When you disagree to agree it is democracy. Everybody has a right to propagate his point of view. Yes on certain issues we can have issue based unity and that is what we are working for.
Q: Have you seen Bajrangi Bhaijan? Isn't love a solution?
A: Unfortunately, I haven’t seen the movie. But I have heard about it and read about it in the media. It talks about human angle to the problem. I think, Bajrangi Bhaijan could relate to both sides of the ceasefire line in Kashmir. Half of my family is on the other side and there are people who have not seen each other for long, long time. Delhi and Lahore have a telecommunication line and people can talk. Here in Kashmir there is no such facility available between Srinagar and Muzaffarabad. We can’t have this luxury.
